To: sbglide-list@silcom.com
From: "Irene, Roger and Tania" binou@sb.net

Hello all.
     A number of weeks ago at 'the rock' near Santa Barbara, there was a pretty gnarly accident. There hasn't been any mention of it so far and despite the fact no one died, it still seems like a good learning opportunity.
     There was a large group of pilots including some very experienced P4s clearing the launch site at the Rock. Sunday late morning, sunny, breezy day. There was an upslope breeze at the launch site but we knew from the weather report it was blowing down at the summit. Classic beginner test question, right?. Everyone was standing around talking about how it was tempting to launch but that they all knew better. This guy (I'll call him John) came onto the scene just as we were finishing the brush whacking. He started laying out his wing and even got several of the other pilots to help hold it up, making the light wind launch easier. This was all right after these 'we know better than this' conversations. After a while, an upslope cycle started and John launched. He immediately dove, since he had started without a lot of airspeed. Still, his canopy was well inflated and he seemed to recover well and was making turns, looking for lift. A minute or so after he lauched, he seemed to pick up a thermal and gained a little altitude. It was still very unclear that he would make it to Parma, the landing site I assume he had in mind when he started. After picking up a little altitude in the thermal he turned left back towards the hill and incidentally, towards a gully. He almost immediately ran into trouble. It looked as though a large thermal popped him up and at the same time stalled his wing. His wing swung him forward and then reinflated quickly. Just as quickly it seemed to stall again and the process repreated. It continued to repeat, with his wing never really fully deflating or recovering, a rapid sort of oscillation which kept up until he hit the ground. He was essentially uninjured (as far as I know) although his wing was caught up in some oak trees. He contacted us at the launch site within a minute of landing.
     So. No one was hurt. I think the thing that was the worst about the whole experience (besides watching this guy falling, perhaps to be injured or killed) was that there were a bunch of pilots at the launch site, myself included that had silently stood by and even helped as he launched. I remember quite clearly saying to people and having them agree it was a bad idea to launch at that time. I'm trying to understand why I just watched and didn't say anything. Part of it was because I had watched John arrive at the training hill from a mountain lauch just a few days prior to this and thought he must really know what he was doing. Still, I could've still struck up a conversation with him knowing what I did about the wind conditions on top. I think the lesson I will take from this is that it is really important for us to watch out for each other. This guy could've still decided to launch, but at least raising the issues allows some time for thought and evaluation. Unlike a lot of other sports, this one is really hard to bail out of gracefully once you've begun.
     I must apologize for my faulty memory. I'm sure some of my observations aren't right and I would appreciate them being corrected. I would also like to know what he did wrong after he launched. Was it just bad luck? Did he turn into a rotor that he could've predicted from the air? Why didn't his wing ever recover? Was it just turbulent air or was he not reacting correctly? I still have a lot to learn as a pilot and I would really like to know the answers to these questions. I still really love flying, I'm still hooked, but it would be good to know how much of what went on once he was in the air was avoidable. I think there is a video tape somewhere out there of the whole episode. If there is, it would be a service to the flying community to make it available. I volunteer to put it on a web site!
     Finally, one of the biggest bummers about the day was that a potential pilot came along to watch the paragliders. Since that experience he has opted to remain with fixed wing, powered aircraft.

Roger

FROM: David Vincent d-vincent@worldnet.att.net
DATE: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:20:07 -0800

RE: Re: [SBGLIDE-LIST] accident

I bet the best way to avoid this SEE SAWing and Inflating and Deflating of HIS PG, maybe he might want to TAKE UP HANG-GLIDING instead where your wing is STRESSED and not just a bunch of Cords UNSTRESSED ABOVE YOU looking for some serious Rotor Action.. I think..... NO I KNOW that if it had been a HG in that same situation, it would have easily recovered enough air speed to turn away from the mountain and HANDLE the Rotor if that was what hit him?

Just My Opinion. Don't mind the Flames.. Guess I for one would NEVER get involved in Paragliding EVEN if it was just Ridge Lift....

See ya,
Dave

To: sbglide-list@silcom.com
From: "Irene, Roger and Tania" binou@sb.net

Gosh David, that was a pretty constructive reply. Thanks for your insight. It gives me some ideas as to why people are timid about having open discussion about the perils of flying. Keep it rolling dude.

Roger

To: sbglide-list@silcom.com
From: Ken deRussy WEFLYUNIV@aol.com

David,

I know you, and I know you have a good heart. But you sound like those sailplane pilots complaining about "them dang, dumb dope smokin' hippies jumpin off cliffs with those dang fool contraptions" back in the old days when you and I started hang gliding.

And you're full of it too! There's no doubt in my mind that you would LOVE paragliding! I guarantee you that when the time comes that you and I are on the training hill together I will get you flying one! Bobby would have! He would have thought it was COOL! Can you imagine him saying "nah! I don't want to fly one of those cause they look too scary!" Not a chance! That guy would do ANYTHING! And he'd end up doing it better than everybody else!

So tell Roger your sorry for sounding like an old curmudgeon cause he's really a nice guy and showed a lot of courage writing about something that troubled him. When was the last time you saw on THIS list something so well written and thoughtful, let alone something that is the very reason that this list has value?

Ken de Russy

To: sbglide-list@silcom.com
From: Jim Maddox Parajames@aol.com

I feel that I must respond the Irene, Roger, and Tania's letter concerning the accident at The Rock. I was one of the experienced P4's that was clearing launch. This activity was not done to launch that day, it just happened to be the place my partner and I stopped, when we heard the reports from The Eliminator, that the wind was blowing down. We decided to start clearing bushes as opposed to just turning around and calling it a day.
     As we cleared, we noticed the conditions were certainly very launchable, but what would happen after launch? With the wind blowing down at the Eliminator, the pilots there decided to drive back. They then reported that the wind was blowing over the back as close as Round house. This was very strange, due to the fact that that house was not very far away from us, and it was bizarre that just above us had wind blowing down, yet we did not have a single down cycle. The entire time, the wind was blowing up, or not blowing at all.
     Keep in mind that John was with the pilots that were reporting the conditions to us at the rock. They were the ones that convinced my friend and me, that it wasn't the day to fly. This is a big hint what I will talk about later. Once this person reached The Rock, they grabbed their gliders, and came over to launch and started setting up. They did not sand around at all, and observe the local conditions. They already knew the overall conditions, having been to the Eliminator, and the Round House. "John" did ask me what the cycles were like, and I told him that the wind was blowing up nicely, which was true. He didn't think to wonder why my friend and I hadn't decided to launch.
     "John" was a P4 himself, and probably was going to fly even if any of us told him that conditions were not right. This is only conjecture, but he had more information about the conditions, than my P4 friend, or me, with him having already been to the top. I was one of several who helped him by holding up his canopy. I do not consider helping one launch as encouragement to fly. If he was going to fly, we did our best to give him all the opertunity to be successful. The launch at the rock is tricky under any condition. I was not, nor was anyone else responsible for his decision to launch.
     As far as how the accident happened, I feel that improper flight decisions were made. First of all, John did not climb out after launch, he sank. The proper thing to do at that point, in my opinion, would be to go straight to the LZ. Instead, he hung out at launch, trying to make something out of nothing. Then, he hit a thermal, which pushed him into the canyon. This is the point that his canopy stalled. Instead of trying to recover from this stall, he held the canopy in the stall, all the way to the ground. Why he did this, I don't know.
     I too felt guilt about this accident, and take responsibility for my part of the accident. Every one of us could have mentioned more forcefully to "John" that the conditions weren't right to launch. However, the decision to launch, in any situation, is always up to the individual flying. All "John" had to do is wait for a few moments, and piece together all of the data he already had, he might have opted to not launch. I recollect he was wondering why no one else was launching, this as he was plucking the canopy out of the bushes after the accident. Just because conditions are adequate to launch, does not mean you should launch! This is one sport where we all have 100% control of our actions. We are not able to depend on others to help us out when we get into predicaments. There is no way that anyone can fly up and give aid/advise during the flight.
     It is in our best interest to continually study our manuals and know how to handle situations like stalls, collapsing, etc. Just because we knew it long enough to make off the correct answer on a test, doesn't mean that we fully understand what to do in an emergency. If you think about what a stall is, keeping the brakes down does not make sense. If you look up stall in the dictionary, it defines stall as a compartment for animal in stable. Wait, if you read further it says "of aircraft, to lose flying speed and controllability." This would make sense then that if you want to recover from a stall, then you would want to let up on the brakes and gain airspeed.

To: sbglide-list@silcom.com
From: Chad Bastian chadb@silcom.com

In response to the Rock accident thread:

I appreciate Roger's letter. It is not easy to ask for help in understanding something like this. There is a lot to learn from this experience, as unpleasant as it was to witness or talk about.
     As I see it, there were three problems. The first was the DECISION TO LAUNCH. The conditions were not appropriate for flying paragliders (or even hang gliders, for that matter). The north wind was blowing over the back hard at launch (Skyport/Eliminator) with gusts from the north as low as the round house (only 300-400 feet up the hill from where we were) and visible on the water at the harbor! Even the hang glider pilots were calling it a day.
     A brief discussion of our local site may be in order. The mountain range behind Santa Barbara runs east to west, with the prevailing winds coming from the NNW. On a light day, the south side of the range heats up and produces thermals which push the wind up, producing what we call "thermal block," essentially allowing us to fly In lee side rotor. OK in light winds, but a situation requiring constant assessment for foot-launched pilots.
     When "john" showed up at the Rock (after having been to the main launch further up), there was no asking about conditions (or opinions), just an unbending determination to launch. Because of his advanced pilot level, NO ONE QUESTIONED his decision to launch, which I see as the second problem. If someone, ANYONE, is going to fly at a time that seems unreasonable to ANY other pilot present, why doesn't someone say something? We just let him launch.
     When the wing stalled, it did not happen because he was flying a paraglider. It was simply NOT FLYABLE. I believe that a hang glider would have had trouble in the same situation, but may have recovered better. The wing stalled because of the turbulence produced by strong north winds, it was blowing HARD! Clue: No hang gliders even launched!
     Once in a stall, the wing continued to stall. I believe it did because HE HELD IT THERE. Third problem. I remember watching a pilot flying in the Owens Valley stall his wing and overcorrect for over 1000 feet until he let go of the brake handles to throw his reserve. Within two seconds, even before he pulled the reserve out, the main glider had recovered and was flying again. But he had already made the decision and out came the laundry. Our "john" held the brakes too deep to allow the glider to recover.
     The spot where he landed gave him the ability to walk away from the accident unscathed, because it was thick, tall brush - relatively soft to land in. What if he had landed on a surface less forgiving? I believe there would have been significant injury as a result.
     My main regret is that I didn't SAY anything to the pilot. If he had been injured, I would feel guilty that I had not even stated that my observations told me it was totally inappropriate to even consider flying.
     -Chad Bastian

To: sbglide-list@silcom.com
From: Alex Soffice

I applaud all of you who have addressed this issue. I agree with the points Chad, Roger, and Jim made. I think that we owe it to each other to be more vocal about days when we think it's a mistake to fly. The combined experience of all P4s is always better than the experience of any one. Those kind of discussions should be encouraged by the instructors among us and should not be construed as "attacks" on the pilot considering launching.
     The pilots response and decision will be greatly influenced by his friends' observations, especially if they are presented in a non-threatening manner. Rather than saying " what are you ? stupid", or worse, not saying anything at all, one might want to say something like "You might want to re-assess the day, John.. let's look at why other pilots aren't flying." This creates an apportunity for learning as opposed to criticism.
     There will be cases where the launching pilot is right, and the "chicken observers" are being overly cautious, and that's ok too... those are also great learning opportunities for everyone.
     My biggest complaint is that instructors hardly ever pat a fellow pilot on the back when they decide NOT TO FLY. We need to all reinforce good decision making, even if its conservative, and not make each other feel "wimpy".
     The biggest problem with this sport is that there is a fine line between being "a careful pilot" and simply spending your life in front of the TV.
     If you haven't read Rob McKenzie's safety interview in the first combined HG/PG magazine it's worth reading. In that article he is asked how he's managed to stay accident free after so many years of daily flying. His answers are very enlightning. Even a master like himself still struggles with decisions of when not to fly, the envelope is just a little clearer for him I think.

Good discussions, keep it up...

PS
     Hang gliders crash too... so I don't think changing wings resolves the dilemma. Nice try.

Alex

It seems my attempts to post this have failed a few times due to the magic of AOL - thus my new Email address. (danielgirard@heyoka-studios.com). I felt strongly enough to write this, so I want to make sure everyone gets it. If you've already seen this, I apologize.

In a message dated 11/24/98 5:19:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, d- vincent@worldnet.att.net writes:

I bet the best way to avoid this SEE SAWing and Inflating and Deflating of HIS PG, maybe he might want to TAKE UP HANG-GLIDING instead where your wing is STRESSED and not just a bunch of Cords UNSTRESSED ABOVE YOU looking for some serious Rotor Action.. I think..... NO I KNOW that if it had been a HG in that same situation, it would have easily recovered enough air speed to turn away from the mountain and HANDLE the Rotor if that was what hit him?
     Just My Opinion. Don't mind the Flames.. Guess I for one would NEVER get involved in Paragliding EVEN if it was just Ridge Lift....

Dave:

I'm usually inclined to keep my comments to myself, but in the interest of being a positive component of the flying community, I'm going to put myself out there a bit and share some long harbored thoughts. As it turns out, I fly a paraglider and quite frankly - it has brought more joy to my life than anything else and for whatever reasons, I'm not really inclined to fly a hanglider. That's just my personal choice. I think hangliders are amazing devices and I respect the pilots that fly them. I'm also pretty amazed at the technology of paragliders and feel blessed to be in the small percentage of people that fly them. To be honest, I'm really burnt out on hearing hanglider pilots tell me how lame paragliders are. Each time I'm at launch and I hear a hanglider pilot speak negatively of paragliders (either subtly or blatantly), it really detracts from my experience - an experience that should be nothing but joyful and exhilarating but quite often carries a bit of a bummer with it. This was not what I envisioned when I entered the sport. I imagined a community of pilots that shared the skies, supported each other, respected each other, socialized together - y'know...strength in numbers. I never thought that such a rift would exist between hangliders and paragliders just because paragliding was a newer sport and a different technology. I don't get it.
     I think Roger's letter was intelligent and well placed. Maybe by him posting his thoughts, someone in similar circumstances in the future might feel empowered to say something to 'John' and quite possibly save his life. That's a good thing.
     I was stoked to see someone have the guts to pose those questions. Unfortunately, my stoke was extinguished a bit when I read your letter. What's the point Dave? Wasn't it less than a year ago when a hanglider helicoptered into the scrub? Could it have been prevented? Would criticizing the airworthiness of hangliders have solved anything? I think not. Your letter did nothing but attempt to devalidate the effort made by Roger to educate a few people and maybe save someone a lot of pain. Whenever I read an accident report - be it a hanglider or paraglider - my heart breaks at the thought of losing another flying brethren and I'm in favor of any attempt to prevent accidents.
     At the risk of getting philosophical, this is the classic tale of human ignorance that surfaces in so many places and in so many ways. On a small scale, it's the mountain bikers against the road bikers, surfers against boogie boarders or non-locals, gangs - that sort of crap. On a big scale, it's one religion bad mouthing another religion or one race of people hating another. People are threatened by other people that are different than they are. I am relentlessly bothered by this mentality. You can tell me paragliders are lame because they "fly slow and get in the way" or they "use up all the cycles" (just heard that one recently - didn't know thermic cycles could actually be depleted by human intervention), but you'll never convince me that comments such as the ones you made in reply to Roger's letter are anything but an inability on your part to accept that maybe - just maybe, there are people that choose to do things their own way and that they're quite possibly good folks making PERSONAL choices.
     I didn't write this letter in an attempt to create more waves. On the contrary, I'm hoping things will change for the better. I'd like to be able to go to launch and be welcomed or at least accepted by hanglider pilots. I totally support the sport of hangliding. I love watching you guys fly. I've met some really cool people that fly hangliders and a few of them have taught me a great deal. I like that dynamic. What I don't like is the dynamic where I'm a schmuck because I fly a paraglider. I still don't get it.
     I welcome the friendship of ANY pilot that wants to share the skies, swap stories, exchange positive information and participate in creating a stronger flying community in Santa Barbara. If you're not open to accepting my sport and who I am, then at least keep your negativity to yourself and let me enjoy what I do without having to absorb your ill feelings. Please.
     For those of you (you know who you are) who approach either sport with the positive energy both deserve, I'm grateful to have you in my circle of friends and look forward to a lifetime of good times and happy landings.

Thusly vented,

Daniel Girard

P.S. I welcome any constructive comments or suggestions that might help strengthen the relationship between hangliders and paragliders.

Dan, thanks for the post. As a biwingual pilot, I too find the closed mindedness of the hang glider pilots unfortunate and sad. There are many reasons for this, but some of the more obvious, to me, include:

-Pg is newer and the wings have been on a rapidly improving development curve. Earlier, some of the difficulties Pg pilots had were related to the wing, just as they were 20 years ago with Hg. The hangies don't think about this angle too much.

-Hg's don't have the same sort of difficulties as Pg (Hg's have different, and just as substantial problems) and the hangies feel a sense of superiority because they don't have THOSE problems. The accident statistics don't show telling differences in relative danger.

-Newer pilots are indoctrinated with this bias. There is no end to the head shaking and criticism whenever a Pg has some difficulty at launch. The hilarious thing is that those same critical folks are frustrated when the tables are turned in the LZ, where Pg after Pg come in for perfect landings near the cone, and the Hg pilots are causing a dip in the world aluminum supply. "Those damn Pg landings are not very entertaining, are they?"

I remember the first time I spent part of a flying day with Pg pilots (at Flynn's last spring) and realized that I may have more in common with them than with many of my Hg buddies. I was a P1 at that time.

Since then I have met many more of both types of pilots and do not think there is great difference between the groups, with the possible exceptions that the Pg pilots are younger, more affluent, more energetic, less sarcastic, have more hair, and more are women. (just kidding, sort of)

Biwingual pilots that both groups respect, flying with your pilots at your sites and on your trips will change attitudes the quickest.

Another way is to have a day such as the New Year's Day flyin where there are training wings of both types and corresponding instructors to allow the others a taste of the other way of foot launched flight. Who knows, one of you panty pilots might be interested enough to try flying the lawn chairs. Two my flying friends have recently switched to Hg.

It is really nice to be able to chose the wing which is best for the conditions. I have never landed at Parma, but after watching a dozen or so Hg's cra-uhh ...landing there, I am much more interested in flying my Pg when I finally do get around to flying SB again.

Hope to meet you when I get there.

Mike Ward
H3 P3
Visalia
mward@lightspeed.net

Daniel:

I agree with your sentiments and would like for us get beyond seeing gliders as the right ones and the wrong ones. We're a very small part of the population; most people don't understand us nor our passion for flying. If we come across as a group with internal bickering and lack of respect for each other, we won't be taken seriously by those who could otherwise grant or deny the privileges we depend on.

We need each other, both HG's and PG's. We each have knowledge and experiences to share with others, and I believe that ultimately we each want the respect and support of others. I know that there are many HG and PG pilots who know a lot more about flying than I do. Mostly I've felt people were very willing to share their insights, and I really appreciate that.

I really respect those who pioneered the sport of soaring ahead of me, making it safer and more enjoyable for those of us who followed. I appreciate those who know the local flying sites and conditions and have been eager to tell me what they know so that I might have a safe experience flying. I may become biwingual someday, but for now am really enjoying the challenges and thrills of learning how to paraglide. If we can give an appreciative comment to our fellow pilots from time to time, we just might get one back sometime. I look forward to flying with you again soon.

Allen
ceking@west.net

Not that I'm any expert in this field but I'd like to point out that only one hang glider pilot posted a negative message obviously just meant to be a put down. One put down does not mean all HG pilots dislike PG pilots. It means that this one person has a problem.

And it is nice to see the positive comments coming out.

If I believed all the negative comments people send me regarding the internet and their access I'd go nuts. In reality most problems and issues between people almost always boil down to two things (In my opinion):

1. religion (not necessarilly the GOD kind, but also the 'mines better' kind)
2. Education (As the previous poster notes so well, he is BOTH a HG and PG pilot and sees the merit of both sports.

Just a couple thoughts!

Frank Dziuba